A Lease on Love

Jonathan Forisha:

Welcome to Adventures in Landlording. Each episode we pack our bags and hit the trail to answer some of the many questions plaguing landlords across America. I’m Jonathan. This is Krista. Hi, how’s it going? It’s so good. How are you? Good. Feeling good for episode one of Adventures in Landlording?

Krista Reuther:

I am so excited to talk about all these things that we’ve gathered here today, so cannot wait.

Jonathan Forisha:

Alright, let’s jump into it. Alright, the first thing that I bring to you. This was posted on Reddit by PizzaPuppies, and this person is a tenant in New York. And they say, does a landlord supplying an electric radiator count as providing heat? What’s your first thought? No. Okay.

Krista Reuther:

That’s my first thought out of the gate.

Jonathan Forisha:

Well the good news is we have a lot more information, so let me go through it. So they say, I have lived in my apartment for over a year now. Last winter it got really cold. This year I bought a thermostat to read the temperature.

The maximum temperature it has been the past few weeks is 65. And that’s in the kitchen with the stove and oven on. The apartment is on the top floor of an old house that seems to have radiators heating the rest of it. My apartment has the floor-base heaters, but they don’t emit heat.

Yikes. The landlord provided two plug-in wall radiators that rack up my electric bill over $180 a month having them on at night. I was reading over my lease to re-sign and saw that in it it says that heat is included. So does this mean they should be paying my electric bill because that is what heats my apartment to a livable temperature? Or providing some other form of heating my apartment like turning on the baseboard heaters or fixing them if they’re broken? The minimum temperatures as I’ve researched to be 68 during the day and 62 at night aren’t met unless I have those radiators on and running for many hours. I’m wondering what my rights are considering they technically provided a heat source but I am paying for it myself when in the least it is said that they cover heat. Also do those temperatures apply to heating the whole apartment? Because it’s impossible to heat the whole place with those two heaters so two rooms are always colder.

Krista Reuther:

Ooh, lots to unpack there. There are quite a few levels. I’m really glad that we have some state-specific information because there are differing laws across the states for what temperature you have to keep a rental. In New York, OP is exactly correct. During the day your rental needs to be able to maintain I think it’s 68 degrees if it’s below 55 degrees outside.

However at night it cannot drop below 62 regardless of the temperature outside. So he already has a case for there being an issue and something that he should bring up to his landlord.

Jonathan Forisha:

And something about those temperatures too is does that apply to the entire rental unit?

Krista Reuther:

So my understanding is yes. I don’t know the specifics but my gut is going in the affirmative. You should be able to have that temperature everywhere. There are very specific ways that code inspectors would come out to measure this where they want it to be a certain degree off of the ground and a certain distance away from the door but by and large the whole unit should be above 68 degrees during the day if it’s 55 people outside in New York.

Jonathan Forisha:

There you go. Okay. So right off the bat pretty obvious it is not warm enough in there. No. But let’s also talk about the fact that in the lease it says the landlord provides heat.

Krista Reuther:

So that’s the big center for me. If the lease didn’t specify you still have an issue with heating. Heating is part of the warranty of habitability which is this implied contract that is in every lease agreement saying that the landlord will provide exactly what the tenant needs to live comfortably. Insofar as making sure that they have heat hot water trash receptacles things of that nature. So big no no to have a unit that’s getting too cold. But the fact that the lease specifies that the landlord will provide the heat that really sticks out. That means yeah they are legally bound to do that. Yeah.

Jonathan Forisha:

Yeah if it’s in the lease and the landlord is not providing it giving them some they call them plug-in wall radiators. So I’ve got questions on what exactly those are but they sound old. And dangerous. They sound dangerous. They sound like they could potentially be fire hazards especially if those are being used around the clock which it sounds like they are. And not to mention they’re extremely energy inefficient adding over $180 a month to the energy bill. So they’re already in violation of their lease this landlord is and these radiators don’t count it don’t count for providing heat.

Krista Reuther:

I would think not. So there are quite a few different things that somebody could do in this case. It is going to start with a conversation. So I’m glad that the original poster reached out. To that end though I think they have a pretty strong case personally to go and say hey it’s in the lease agreement. What can we do to facilitate this so that you are covering the heat as specified in our contract. Is there anything that you would add to that conversation.

Jonathan Forisha:

I mean just the I mean talking to the landlord about the fact that it sounds like only one room one of their I think three if I’m reading this correctly one of their three rooms in this rental ever reaches the correct temperature. So even if for some reason the landlord was to push back and say wow I gave you the plug in wall radiators that’s good enough.

It’s not because the other two rooms it sounds like are even colder. So and it should be noted that a lot of these state specific laws that that Krista mentioned that specifically New York needs to reach these temperatures of what 68 during the day 62 at night. There are reasons for those. You know a lot of it could do with the building codes obviously it’s local weather. So in Rochester New York it’s getting cold enough that maybe depending on how the house is insulated the pipes could start to get into dangerous territory.

I mean that’s why they set some of these limits. It’s not just for habitability and tenants comfort. It’s also how the houses around there are constructed. So skimping to save some money or pushing that those costs onto the tenant not only a violation of the lease but it could be putting the rental in jeopardy especially when it sounds like the heating sources they did provide could be fire hazards.

Krista Reuther:

Yeah that sounds pretty dangerous. Yeah if you can’t get them with the fact that it’s violating tenants rights get them with the fact that it could risk their investment and that is something that might perk up more ears and get some action moved in. I would say if this person sits down with their landlord they should be very calm collected outline everything that they’ve shared say hey there are multiple rooms in my house that do not reach the proper temperature. I’m using what you’ve provided but unfortunately it’s still not getting to the safe degree that we know we have to have in New York based on this government site you can go to NYC.gov they have all of this information laid out and this kind of concern is something that your landlord has to act on immediately. Sometimes you know as a tenant you might want something to be done and it’s more of a it doesn’t have to happen heat and hot water things of that nature that must be corrected immediately.

So you’ve got a really good case I know that they were worried that they didn’t have all their ducks in a row they wanted to make sure they knew the lay of the land before they have the conversation. You are well within your rights to go out and talk to your landlord point back to the lease and say hey what can we do so that you are covering this whether that’s fixing the baseboards providing an additional heat source like what can you do to correct this take over the electric bill but it is your right as a tenant in this case to have the conversation and expect action.

Jonathan Forisha:

Absolutely yeah we wrote a blog outlining how long a landlord has to fix something and it really does depend on the nature of the repair that needs to be done as you said some of these sorts of repairs are maybe wants not needs or maybe their needs but they’re not dire something like heat in upstate New York in the winter that is dire you have to act immediately to do that. It should also be noted you know the poster here talks about how there are floor based heaters but they don’t emit heat so there’s some kind of ducting some something has been built into the unit it’s not as if it was built without heat. I don’t think maybe anything in Rochester is built without heat.

We hope not. But if it’s a case where the boiler or furnace or whatever other heat source is broken the landlord could get that fixed and it would it could be tax deductible.

Krista Reuther:

Yeah absolutely that’s a really good point landlords if you’re out there you could go ahead act on this if there is already a system in place it would most likely be considered a repair so that means that you can deduct it from your taxes the year that you do it. If you are making an improvement to your property let’s say you’re adding a heater you never had one in there that would be like I said an improvement and that means it’s depreciable you have to depreciate it over time you can’t take it as a one time tax deduction but you’ll take it over the course of years depending on your local laws. But either way it helps to protect your bottom line while making sure that your tenants needs are met and while making sure that you’re upholding the warranty of habitability because that is the main thing here outside of the lease agreement and the language they’re in you are duty bound to provide a warm place for tenants that is part of what you’re taking on when you become a landlord. That’s right. So go forth and prosper it doesn’t have to be this giant issue but since everything’s specified in the lease tenant have a reasonable conversation sit down let them know your concerns you can pitch some of these solutions if you’d like but otherwise you should be having a warmer winter this year. Absolutely. Anchors crossed.

Jonathan Forisha:

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Krista Reuther:

So beyond having a lot of opinions on matters for landlords I have a lot of opinions on matters of the heart and this story combines them both I am so excited. What a tease. I know.

Okay. All right so this comes from poster tenant uncertain headline here I 26 year old female and finding myself falling in love with my landlord. So this renter is she found herself in a bad situation she was trying to leave she moved out into the city with her seven year old this is very important she has a little kid okay she has no support in the city but that’s okay if you’ve got enough gumption you can make it anywhere. Absolutely. Except then cope with it and she was a waitress and so gumption runs a little dry when there’s a global pandemic happening.

So she was struggling to find work she’s running out of food you know her kiddo is all set up but everything else is kind of falling apart so she talks to one of her colleagues and her colleague said hey I know this great guy and he’s going to rent out his basement. But he’s not just renting it out to anybody, so I’d be calling in a favor, but would you want to go check it out?

And she’s like, “renting a basement from some unknown entity. That’s a little suspicious.” She’s kind of on the fence. It sounds too good to be true.

And the colleague is like, no, let’s just go and meet him and see the place. Okay, so she brings her kiddo and her colleague to the rental. She meets the landlord who also has a small son around the age of her daughter. It’s a beautiful spot. It’s a beautiful home. It’s a walkout basement rental, so they have access to the yard where the kiddos can play. The kiddos are getting along really well. Everything is looking good.

She’s like, man, this might be it. This is good vibes, good feelings. So after a lot of hesitation, she agrees. She signs a lease.
She’s in. But this landlord is not your typical landlord.

What I mean is he’s like, hey, it’s okay that you can’t pay rent for these first few months.You can pay me back at some point. I will buy groceries. I will make sure that everything is turned on, the heat’s on, utilities are paid. I will take care of it because he’s also living in this place, right? So she’s in the basement, he’s on the upper floor.

It’s working out for a long time.

They’re starting to become kind of like a little family unit. She eventually is able to start repaying him for the rent that she missed. She starts contributing to groceries He’s cooking meals for everyone He is like taking her kid out to playdates her kid and his kid play all the time. Okay school They’re doing all the stuff. It’s like a pseudo family. Yeah, right well as You might expect there are bodies. There are no bodies. Oh, okay matters of the heart John. You’re right. You’re right wrong movie

No, this is wholesome, but no, she’s like, oh my gosh, this landlord is so nice. He’s so sweet. He’s good with his kid. He’s good with my kid. We’re kind of taking on life together. We’re cooking meals together, like all of this stuff. And it starts to blur the line between landlord and tenant.

So it starts to feel more like family, right? So she came to Reddit because she was like, what do I do about this? Do I do anything?
Like will I risk my housing if I confess my love for my landlord? he’s pretty reserved. He’s really nice. He’s very kind. But she doesn’t ever read on him romantically.

What a dicey situation to find yourself in. Horrible. I would never ever recommend mixing legal matters and matters of the heart. But alas, here we are.

So she wants to know. She’s like, hey, do I swallow my feelings?
Do I tell him? Like, what should I do?

And Lord knows I have several opinions. Of course.

Jonathan Forisha:

I think we all do. I love first of all that you keep calling it matters of the heart It’s fantastic. So I think at the start you mentioned the age of our poster is 26. Yes How old’s our landlord?

Krista Reuther:

I believe and let me look right here because we do have that information I believe he’s 38

Jonathan Forisha:

38 12 year age difference, but their kids are similar age

Krista Reuther:

similar ages His son is a little bit younger. So he’s like four daughter is seven.

Jonathan Forisha:

Okay, and you gave a great Truncated telling of this tale. It should be noted. This is a very long and there are no comments on it because This one I guess the mods on this particular subreddit said You’re looking for moral advice. That’s not what this is.

So it’s a good thing. We’re here to tackle this one So from the start of it, it sounds like a real meat queue, right? This could totally be a rom-com Woman down on her luck. She goes to the big city It doesn’t even say what city by the way,

Krista Reuther:

it does not so we have no geographic information wish that we did I’m sure that there are state and specific laws for counties that might play into this But we’re gonna take it as broadly as possible.

Jonathan Forisha:

Sure goes a big city Finds a nice guy. Mm-hmm could be really creepy not creepy though. Not great guy. Yeah, I Mean, what are your thoughts? Is there anything wrong with this?

Krista Reuther:

So what you have to know is that I am a very paranoid person. So when I was reading this I was like, okay. Yeah, love is great But also, do you have enough in savings in case this all goes south after you have a conversation? Because I also believe in being transparent about your feelings, but prepared So if this poster was my friend, I would sit her down I probably give her a hug because Lord knows this sounds like a lot But sit her down and say hey, I totally understand like you can’t control your feelings.

This person seems really nice He seems great. Let’s make sure that you have everything you need to move out in case it goes horribly wrong Okay, I know I’m not saying you don’t have to share your heart with him I am saying have enough money in the bank to hit the road just in case Because you we don’t know where he stands It could be that he is just being friendly and he does not see this romantically and this kind of confession will make things really awkward and Maybe kind of break things apart a little bit. That’s one of her fears at least It could go really sweetly and you could use the money that you saved up for a honeymoon fund.

Jonathan Forisha:

There you go And then she just moves in with them and stops paying rent and they just get married and live happily ever after it could be It could be great.

Krista Reuther:

But before you have that conversation I would say especially because there’s a kid in the mix Have the money and the resources you need to be able to leave. Mm-hmm So that might mean saving up for quite a few months before you have this kind of conversation If something pops up naturally, let’s say he just gets a twinkle in his eye one morning as he’s making you coffee And he’s like love has always been here. It wasn’t written in the lease, but it

Jonathan Forisha:

came Did you have that prepared no the love in the least okay, that’s what Lisa Dendams are for that’s what Defacing your love for your tenant

Krista Reuther:

exactly exactly But really on on the renter side just make sure you have all your ducks in a row save up Have an escape route planned and then sit him down one day It doesn’t even have to be a big production. Mm-hmm could be while he’s making dinner and be like, you know what you’re more than just a landlord to me Your a land love It’s you what he

Jonathan Forisha:

says, you know people always say Maybe you shouldn’t live with your best friend or maybe you shouldn’t live with family as in like renting to family Because when if things goes sour they could go really sour It could be not only do you need to find a new tenant now, but you also need to find a new brother

Krista Reuther:

Yeah, which is a lot harder in this market. Yeah, and this is absolutely the case here where You know say things don’t work out this person could not only need to look for a new place to live They also Would be out of love out of love out of home cooked meals out of play date arrangements So you really have to look at everything and just have a backup plan, right? But again, I’m a huge believer in following your heart So like sure have the conversation sit down with him just make sure everything’s ready to go in case it doesn’t go the way you Want to

Jonathan Forisha:

now let’s flip it around because this is written from tenant uncertain This is from the 26 year old tenant. What about the 38 year old landlord?

Krista Reuther:

Oh, I would be given them very different advice because here’s the thing. There’s an inherent power dynamic Yes, there’s a landlord and a renter if you’re a landlord and you start developing feelings for your renter You need to stop that right now because you control where they live Yeah, and that means that you have more power over them than they have over you and that can make things really dicey Mm-hmm, so I’m again big believer in following your heart But at that point if I was talking to the landlord I might recommend waiting until the lease is up So that there isn’t a pressure to like oh if I don’t tell him I love him and resign this lease I’ll be homeless like you don’t want to put someone in that position So you got to be thoughtful I think that’s a great point Here we go invite us to the wedding, please if there is one

Jonathan Forisha:

yes We will create a song about landlord love and we will sing it there. We have ukuleles and we’ll use them

Krista Reuther:

We really that is a threat Customize a state-specific lease agreement in 15 minutes or less with turbo tenant sign up today at landlord pod.com to get started And tell them podcast sent you

Jonathan Forisha:

so here at adventures in land loading We firmly believe landlords can be a positive force in their community But we also know there are some real stinkers out there And we like to highlight them in the hopes that you will learn from their mistakes This is what we call the landlord special Okay, so this landlord special this is a Landlord consultant don’t know what that title means in the uk Their name is Jamie underscore G 257 oh and they said I Consider it an error on my part if any of my tenants are able to save up enough to buy a house It meant I was undercharging them in any other industry. You wouldn’t leave money on the table like that.

Krista Reuther:

It’s basic market economics I’m gonna introduce Jamie to a basic market economic

Jonathan Forisha:

Well, hang on let’s unpack it can you can you say it?

Krista Reuther:

You are physically able to but should you know no can you do it? No, and that’s not a good sign that you are thriving as a landlord your tenants should be able to live Like you’re not there to just gouge them. You know who does that slum lords? Yeah So no there is no part of this that I agree with It’s not basic market economics and I would invite Jamie to take a basic economic course to correct some of this Idiocy that I see on screen.

Jonathan Forisha:

Yeah, so this is a common complaint with landlords Is that they are gouging their tenants for all the money that they have and there’s already an inherent power struggle between the Homeowner in the home renter that’s always gonna happen, right? this idea though that You’re undercharging them if they’re able to pay the rent and save up enough money to buy their own house. That’s absurd But also Most people get into being a landlord because they are a real estate investor, right? You buy the property You buy and hold it for a long time That’s how you win with real estate investing is that housing? Valuations go up over time eventually your house is worth a lot more than you bought it for awesome in the meantime And this is the cool part about a long-term rental you can have tenants in there paying your mortgage So you’re making some money off the tenant But really the goal is that they cover your mortgage and your housing expenses and the real payoff is at the end of what?

3050 years. I don’t know how long a long time when you actually sell that property And if you’re thinking of it that way then in the meantime when you’re renting it out you’re really a service provider.

Krista Reuther:

Yes Yes, that’s what I feel like so many landlords miss out on when they are trying to get into this game You are a service provider. This is a human business Your goal is not to drive these people into the ground and make it so they can never live anywhere else Would you even want someone in your place who can’t live anywhere else like that sounds miserable on all sides? So now this is that yeah, it is just Absolute baloney. That’s the most PG thing I can say Absolute baloney. No, this is incorrect. Please. Don’t be this landlord.

Jonathan Forisha:

Don’t be this landlord Don’t do it. There’s no reason to gouge your tenants if your tenant has been there for a while And then they tell you hey at the end of this lease I’m going to be moving out because I’m gonna go buy my own house You should say that’s great And then you should say since you’ve been such a great tenant Do you have anyone you could refer to take your place when you move ding ding ding?

Krista Reuther:

Yes being a good person Means that you can actually have an even better business with less stress because if you have a good tenant in there You’ve had a positive relationship When they move out for whatever reason if they’re buying a house if they just want to go see a new state whatever They could have someone else just like them ready to step in pay the rent on time be respectful all of these other things And then you don’t have to stress about trying to fill your vacancy because they’ve done most the hard work for you Yeah, still screen people But you still have a lead a foot up over others who might be scrambling trying to find anyone to fill their vacancy absolutely

Jonathan Forisha:

Don’t be Jamie g57 don’t be him. Don’t be Jamie be better Well that is it for this episode of adventures in land learning make sure to subscribe on your podcast player of choice and on YouTube If you have any feedback or you want to share your own adventure in land learning check us out at landlord pod.com